A New Divinely Decreed Way to Save Lost Souls in South Africa
Posted by Tom Lessing on June 22, 2009
God has apparently authorized and laid a brand new foundation for the salvation of tens of millions of South Africans. He allegedly decided that the sacrificial death of his Son on the cross is inadequate and deficient and has now co-opted a woman, Elza Meyer, who is one of the leader pastors at the Moreleta Park Dutch Reformed Church, to assist Jesus Christ in His vicarious punishment for our sins on the cross. Elza’s son, Pieter, was instrumental in bringing about this new way of salvation. Here’s what Elza wrote on her blog “Turn2God.”
During the Eastern Cape conference demons attacked my body. We were unable to break the effect thereof until I phoned my son, Pieter, late that night asking him to pray for me. He claimed 10 million souls, saved and baptized in exchange for the attack on my life. It immediately stopped. The Moreleta Park congregation was led to formulate a new goal for the congregation, namely 10 million souls within ten years. The overriding aim is to reach 10 million souls with the Gospel and to make them disciples of Jesus Christ. (Emphasis added)
How are they going to proclaim the Gospel? Are they going to tell the lost souls they wish to reach for Christ that God wants to save them because He allowed Elza Meyer to survive a severe demonic attack on her life? No . . .? Do I here a choir of Moreleta Park congregants singing “No! we are not going to do it that way”? The irony is that they have already begun to do it that way on Elza’s blog “Turn2God.” Have they never heard of Paul’s warning in 1 Corinthians 3:11?
1 Cor. 3: 11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
You are dead wrong, brother Paul. Haven’t you heard of the brand new cornerstone and foundation that was laid in the Moreleta Park Dutch Reformed Church recently? No . . .? How silly of you. Well, God is going to save 10 million lost souls within ten years in South Africa (a million a year) in exchange for Elza Meyer’s survival of a very severe demonic attack on her body. What did you say Paul? Did I hear you say, “Blasphemy?” No, no, no, no and again no, Paul. How dare you call it blasphemy? You’re too old fashioned. We’re living in the enlightened postmodern days and we are re-inventing Christianity. We are finding new ways of presenting the Gospel of Jesus Christ, the one you received directly from Him. Elza’s way is just one of the many other ways the Gospel is being presented to lost souls in South Africa. Our South African pastors are some of the most resourceful in the world . . . don’t you think, Paul?
I just love to read the Word of God and to unearth truths that I would never have thought I’d find there. I was rather surprised to find the following gem in the Bible.
Luke 16:8 . . . for the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light.
Nah!, never brother Luke! You must be kidding! Well, I thought so until I read a blog where an atheist asks the question “Isn’t sanctimony a sin?” in his discussion of Elza Meyer’s unbiblical claim. While thousands of women (and perhaps just as many men who are under the petticoat government at Moreleta park congregation) who claim to be Christians are in awe of Elza’s new way of presenting the Gospel and have even set a new goal for the Moreleta Park congregation, there seems to be at least one person, an unbeliever, who has the presence of mind to see through the whole charade and is kind enough to sound a word of warning against the sin of sanctimony. You can read what the word “sanctimony” means right here and believe me its not pretty, not pretty at all.
What on earth is going on in our beloved country? Elza Meyer says “Return to God.” Stephan Joubert says: “Nope” that’s the wrong direction. Christians are not supposed to return to the Bible or to God. They must advance and move forward to God, and the way forward is to boldly go where no man has gone before.” It kinda reminds me of Buzz Lightyear in “Toy Story” who ventured to go to infinity and beyond until he realized his wings were fake. Then there’s Jannie Pelser and Graham Power who say “No! our way is the best. Let’s hand out new norms and values (ethics) to every single person in our beloved South Africa and everything will be just hunky-dory.” Do they actually think they are going to reach millions of lost souls in South Africa with this kind of cacophony of lies?
Angus Buchan’s appearances thus far at the Moreleta Park Dutch Reformed Church doesn’t seem to have had any lasting effect on the pastors, and the husbands and wives in their congregation. Wherever oom Angus preaches he admonishes the men to love their wives and the wives to submit themselves to their husbands. What kind of mighty men has oom Angus nurtured in the Moreleta Park congregation at his Mighty Men Conferences who do not warn their wives against Elza Meyer’s erroneous doctrines, or are they all in submission to their wives under a petticoat government? Elza Meyer herself isn’t much of a good example to the wives who seems to be governing the male pastors and the entire congregation with an iron fist, and leading the way for the entire congregation to buy into her unbiblical demand for the salvation of 10 million lost souls in exchange for her miraculous survival of a severe demonic attack on her life. Is it really true that not a single male pastor or other male congregant hasn’t warned her of her unbiblical teachings?
There is only one single, acceptable and efficient foundation (claim) Christians may present to the Lord for the salvation of lost souls, and guess what . . . . ? It is definitely not Elza Meyer’s survival of a severe demonic attack on her body. That’s pure and simple blasphemy and she and her son, as well as the entire Moreleta Park DRC congregation need to ask God’s forgiveness for their waywardness and rebellion. It was Jesus Christ’s own torn and blood-drenched body, and his alone, that brought about reconciliation between lost sinners and Almighty God. You find the same heresies being taught in Roman Catholicism. Padre Pio who regularly experienced stigmata for about 45 years, claimed that more spirits of the dead visited him in his cell in the monastery than living people, and the other monks said they heard multitudes of voices talking with him and he said that these people were coming from purgatory on their way to heaven thanking him for suffering for their sins to get them out of there. In fact, as a novice he asked the superior when he first became a monk, for permission to suffer for the sins of the world and he was granted permission. So, the stigmata (which was nothing else than demonic attacks) was supposedly his suffering. The suffering of Christ was not sufficient but he had to add to it.
Return to God? You bet, but not in the way Elza Meyer and her Hadassa sisters and Mighty Men are urging South Africans to do it. God will never allow sinful man to barter for lost souls on the basis Elza Meyer, her son and the entire Moreleta Park DRC put forward to Almighty God. You’re deceived and you are deceiving others. Stop your nonsense!
65 Responses to “A New Divinely Decreed Way to Save Lost Souls in South Africa”
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Elmarie said
Moreleta Park, Bruce Wilkinson and the Amazonic “jesus” New article at DTW blog
Sure hope this works
Thomas said
I have been away for 10 days. Could’nt find any comment in spam. Would you mind posting it again? Thanks!
Elmarie said
Thomas
I placed a comment and it may be in spam box would you be so kind to check please.
you may delete this comment then please!!
Denise Biggs said
This weekend the Ds Elza Meyer’s Haddasah conference came to our small town. I found it designed to manipulate and to stir up emotions. At just the right time in the showing of the DVD, the lights were dimmed and the facilitator walked around with a box of tissues.
It concerns me that we were told that according to Ds Meyer’s vision, only a few would pitch up, presumably at the conference at which the DVD was recorded but that they were not to be concerned because they were the “çhosen”. Where have we heard this terminology before? We also were given a vial of myrrh and told to taste it and rub it on our hands. Having rubbed it on our hands, we were now “anointed”. The conference ran over Friday and Saturday but I could not bear to return on the Saturday. I would urge you to get hold of the DVD which is being sold on the Haddasah tour to verify what I am saying. I think people, specifically vulnerable women are having their ears tickled. Their “pain” is being acknowledged and they are being used!
Elza Meyer Attacked by Demons, Saved by Son « Discerning the World said
[...] “Angus Buchan’s appearances thus far at the Moreleta Park Dutch Reformed Church doesn’t seem to have had any lasting effect on the pastors, and the husbands and wives in their congregation. Wherever oom Angus preaches he admonishes the men to love their wives and the wives to submit themselves to their husbands. What kind of mighty men has oom Angus nurtured in the Moreleta Park congregation at his Mighty Men Conferences who do not warn their wives against Elza Meyer’s erroneous doctrines, or are they all in submission to their wives under a petticoat government? Elza Meyer herself isn’t much of a good example to the wives who seems to be governing the male pastors and the entire congregation with an iron fist, and leading the way for the entire congregation to buy into her unbiblical demand for the salvation of 10 million lost souls in exchange for her miraculous survival of a severe demonic attack on her life. Is it really true that not a single male pastor or other male congregant hasn’t warned her of her unbiblical teachings?” – [1] http://1joh4.wordpress.com/2009/06/22/a-new-divinely-decreed-way-of-saving-lost-souls-in-south-afric… [...]
Thomas said
Kom ek sê sommer reg in die begin dat die Bybel nêrens sê “Kies die Here Jesus en jy sal gered word nie.” Nee, dit sê telkens dat verlore sondaars in die Here Jesus moet glo om gered te kan word. En tog kan die mens se keuse (die daadwerklike beoefening van sy vrye-wil) nie buite rekening gelaat of tersyde gestel word nie.
Die oproep tot bekering/redding is terselfdertyd ’n opdrag en ’n uitnodiging. “Bekeer julle, want die koninkryk van die hemele het naby gekom” is ’n opdrag terywl “Kom na My toe, almal wat vermoeid en belas is, en Ek sal julle rus gee” ’n uitnodging is. So-ook is die gedeelte in Matteus 22:19: “Gaan dan op die kruispaaie en nooi almal wat julle mag vind, na die bruilof” ’n uitnodiging wat dui op die mens se vrye keuse om óf positief óf negatief daarop te regeer. Aan die anderkant vind ons in Lukas 14:23 dat beklering/redding weer eens daarop dui dat dit ’n opdrag is: “Gaan uit op die paaie en na die lanings en dwing hulle om in te kom, sodat my huis vol kan word.” Jesus se hartverkeurende uitroep in Matteus 23:37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, jy wat die profete doodmaak en stenig dié wat na jou gestuur is, hoe dikwels wou Ek jou kinders bymekaarmaak net soos ‘n hen haar kuikens onder die vlerke bymekaarmaak, en julle wou nie!” dui onomwonde op die mense se vermoë om óf die regte óf die verkeerde keuse te maak.
Ons vind selfs in die Ou Testament dat die mens se vrye wil/ eie keuse t.o.v. bekering/redding nie buite rekening gelaat kan word nie. Die bekende gedeelte in Deut 11 waar God twee alternatiewe opsies aan Israel voorhou, ’n seën en ’n vloek, bewys sonder twyfel dat die mens die vermoë het om óf die goeie óf die slegte te kies.
Dat dit die werking van die Heilige Gees is wat verlore sondaars oortuig om hulle tot God te bekeer is nie altemit nie, maar weer eens sluit dit die mens se keuse en sy vermoë om sy vrye-wil te beoefen nie uit nie.
Jy sê dat jou “keuse” van die goeie nie uit jouself is nie. Waarom sou die Here in Deuteronomium 30:19 dan vir die mens sê “Kies dan die lewe (die ewige lewe), dat jy kan lewe . . .” as die mens nie in staat is om die goeie te kan kies nie, of is die keuse om ewig te wil lewe nie ‘n goeie keuse nie? Die Here sal mos nie vir ons sê om die ewige lewe te kies as Hyself die keuse vir ons sou maak nie. Indien dit Hy is wat hierdie keuse in die mens se hart bewerk of inboesem dan is dit nie meer jou keuse nie, en dit sou dan sy oproep om self die keuse te maak totaal oorbodig maak. Dis mos buitensporig om vir iemand te sê: “Maak jy die keuse, maar ek sal in elk geval jou keuse ongeldig verklaar en die keuse vir jou maak.”
Natuurlik is jou diensbaarheid aan God nie in eie krag nie. Dit is God wat in jou werk om te wil en te werk volgens sy welbehae. Maar, nog steeds rus die onus op jou om sy opdragte volgens jou keuse/vrye-wil te doen wat Hy nie vir of namens jou sal of gaan doen nie. So bevoorbeeld sal Hy nie namens jou jouself verloën, jou kruis opneem en Hom volg nie. Jy moet dit self doen. Ons kom daagsliks voor die keuse te staan om óf vanuit die vlees óf deur sy Gees te lewe en te wandel. So-ook het jy die keuse om of jou ledemate as ’n lewende heilige en welgevalle offer aan Hom te bied of om dit in diens van die sonde te gebruik. Dis is ’n opdrag, maar jy het nog steeds die vermoë om te kies wat jy wil doen. Die Here gaan nie namens jou kies om jou liggaam as ‘n lewende, heilige en welgevallige offer aan Hom te bied nie. Daarom sê Paulus dat dit ons “redelike godsdiens” is. Dis iets wat ons met die rede (ons verstand), d.w.s. die vermoë om te kan kies, moet beoefen. Dis nie iets wat die uitskakeling van die rede verg nie.
Jy reken dat as jy vanuit jouself kies dan kan jy net die verkeerde kies, maar wanneer jy vanuit God kies, kies jy altyd die goeie en die regte dinge. Ons lees nêrens in die Bybel dat daar so ‘n dualistiese manier van keuse is nie — die een uit jouself en die ander uit God. Die Here maak nêrens so ’n onderskeid nie. Hy sê bloot net “kies.” Ons lees in Psalm 25:12: “Wie tog is die man wat die HERE vrees? Hy sal hom leer aangaande die weg wat hy moet kies.” Dit is wel God wat vir die mens leer en wys watter weg hy moet volg, maar dit is “hy” (die mens self) wat moet kies.
Vrye keuse is inderdaad iets neutraals. Dit kan óf vir of teen die goeie kies óf vir of teen die slegte kies. Die verskil kom daarin dat waneer jy die goeie kies (God alleen is goed) dan erken jy dat jy wat sleg is die Goeie nodig het om jou te red van jou verlore toestand. Daarmee bring jy alle eer aan God wie alleen Goed is en nie aan jouself nie. Wanneer jy egter die teensoorgestelde kies (dus die slegte) en die Goeie verwerp as die enigste Goeie wat jou kan red, bring jy geen eer aan Hom nie.
Redding/wedergeboorte/verlossing is uit en uit ’n gawe van God maar die mens het nog steeds die vrye keuse om sy gawe uit dankbaarheid te onvang of te verwerp. Indien God sy gawe deur die uitverkiesing monergisites op iemand moes afdwing, sou sy gawe nie meer ’n gawe wees nie, maar dwinglandy. Hoe op deeske aarde kan jy geloof monergisties in iemand (die sg. iitverkorenes) inboesem sonder dat hulle dit weet en dit dan ’n gawe noem? Dis mos nie ’n gawe nie. ’n Gawe kan alleenlik ’n gawe (present; geskenk) wees wanneer die persoon aan wie dit gebied word dit uit vrye-wil en dankbaarheid in ontvangs neem. Die Engelse woord “present” beteken juis om iets vir iemand aan te bied wat hy of sy willens en wetens kan ontvang of verwerp.
Die vermoë om te kies is nie opsigself of inherent goed of sleg nie; dit word eers goed of sleg na gelang jy die keuses gemaak het.
Thomas said
Ferdi,
Ek sit op die oomblik vas met iets anders en kan jou dus nie dadelik antwoord nie. Gee kans en ek hoop om jou vrae so gou as moontlik te antwoord.
Ferdi said
Tom,
Almal van ons probeer maar om te verstaan, wat presies bedoel word om te kies, hetsy ‘reg’ kies of ‘verkeerd’ kies. Wat ek kon leer uit die geestes-sfeer van die lewe, was dat ek of vanuit myself kies, of in krag van God kies. Daar is nie ‘n 3de opsie waarvan ekself bewus is nie, behalwe as my waarnemingsvermoë my in die steek sou laat.
Uit myself kon ek nog nooit ‘goed’ kies nie, nie waarvan ek bewus is nie. Wanneer ek myself dien, dien ek uiteraard die satan en dit doen ek in eie krag. Wanneer ek God dien in my keuses, kon ek nog nooit my eie krag daarin sien nie, maar het Hom nog altyd verheerlik, omdat Hy my die vermoë gee en die insig gee en die uiteraard die krag gee om dit te doen. Hy alleen kry die eer en Hy werk dus GENADIGLIK in my, sodat ek Hom wel kan vereer daarvoor. Vry wil is een of ander krag wat vasgevang is in die mens, waar die mens in eie krag dinge kan kies, hetsy reg of verkeerd. As ek vry wil moet waarneem soos ek jou verstaan en ook in die vry wil denkwyse observeer, soos ek reeds verduidelik het ek my keuses verstaan, moet ek dit iewers in ‘n neutrale posisie plaas, want vry wil kan tussen reg en verkeerd kies, vanuit ‘n posisie om dit te kan doen. Daar is dus goed (God) en kwaad (myself) en dan is daar vry wil, wat neutraal kan beoordeel hieroor? Ek sien dit egter nie en soos ek my keuses verstaan, kom dit of vanuit myself of vanuit God. Waar sou ek fouteer om so te redeneer, dat dit net uit myself of uit God kan wees?
As ek ‘verkeerd’ kies, is dit omdat ek vanuit myself kies en as ek ‘reg’ kies, verstaan ek dit vanuit God uit. Oor hierdie rede kan ek myself nie verhef in enige vorm, sou ek ‘reg’ kies nie en moet ek God al die eer gee, vir dit wat Hy in my lewe doen. My redding is oor hierdie selfde rede suiwer uit genade, want ek het absoluut niks gedoen in eie krag of vanuit myself, om dit naastenby te kon verdien nie. Nou wil ek jou vra Tom, as jy ‘reg’ kies in die lewe, is dit iets vanuit jouself wat reg kies?
Is daar iets ‘goeds’ wat in jou en my skuil, wat God kan behaag? As daar iets ‘goeds’ in ons skuil, hoe verlore is ons dan werklik? Wat my die meeste van myself bekommer, is hoekom sien ek niks ‘goeds’ in myself nie, is daar fout met my? Waar is my vry wil dan om ‘goed’ te kies, hoekom het ek dit nie ook nie?
Thomas said
Dis nogal interessant dat jy die gedeelte in Handelinge 16 aanhaal waar Paulus vir die tronkbewaarder sê: “Glo in die Here Jesus Christus en jy sal gered word, jy en jou huisgesin.”
Daar’s ‘n paar baie belangrike dinge waarna ons moet oplet in hierdie gedeelte. In die eerste plek het Paulus dit baie duidelik gemaak dat geloof die enigste voorwaarde is om gered te kan word, want “sonder geloof is dit onmoontlik om God te behaag; want hy wat tot God gaan, moet glo dat Hy is en ‘n beloner is van die wat Hom soek” (Hebreërs 11:6). Geloof is dus niks anders as die vaste wete en vertroue dat, as ek my tot God wend vir my redding, Hy my SAL red omdat ek glo dat Hy is (die enige ware God is wat Homself aan Moses bekend gestel het as “EK IS”) en dat HY my sal beloon (nie omdat ek dit verdien nie, maar slegs uit genade) met sy saligheidswerk omdat ek Hom met my hele hart soek (Jeremia 29:13).
Let noukeurig op dat Paulus nie vir die tronkbewaarder gesê het: “Glo in die Here Jesus Christus en jy en jou huisgesin IS gered nie.” Hy het gesê: “Glo in die Here Jesus Christus en jy SAL gered word, jy en jou huisgesin.” Geloof is nie iets wat net vir die mens beskore is nie (en daarmee bedoel ek nie dat die duiwels gered kan word nie); die duiwels glo ook en hulle sidder (Jakobus 2:19). Paulus het ook nie gesê: “Die Here sal jou en jou huisgesin die geloof gee sodat julle gered kan word” nie. Nee! die onus was op hulle om te glo.
Wat moes dus dan nog bykom voordat die tronkbewaarder en sy huisgesin gered kon word? Niks anders as KENNIS nie, en hoe moes hulle hierdie kennis bekom? Op geen ander wyse as deur die prediking van die Woord nie. Hoe kan ek werklik glo as ek nie die Persoon in wie ek moet glo werklik ken nie (geen kennis oor Hom beskik nie)? Die tronkbewaarder het Paulus en Silas, nadat hulle vir hom gesê het hy gered SAL word op voorwaarde dat hy glo, na sy huis geneem waar Paulus die Evangelie aan hom en sy hele huisgesin verkondig het (Romeine 10:17) en eers toe is hulle gered. Waarom is kennis dan so belngrik om gered te kan word? Omdat Jesus Christus self gesê het “En dit is die ewige lewe, dat hulle U KEN, die enige waaragtige God, en Jesus Christus wat U gestuur het” (Johannes 17:3).
Die vraag is nou: Red jou geloof en jou kennis oor God jou. Nee!! Beslis nie! Dit is slegs die voorwaardes wat God aan die mens stel om gered te kan word, en dit (jou redding) word alleen deur die toedoen van sy Heilige Gees bewerkstellig. Paulus sê van die Jode in Romeine 10 2: “Want ek getuig van hulle dat hulle ‘n ywer vir God het, maar sonder kennis.” Dit is God alleen wat red maar as jy nie sy openbaring oor Homself en sy Seun ken, aanvaar en glo nie, kan jy nie gered word nie — en aan wie openbaar God Hom? Hy openbaar Hom alleenlik aan elkeen wat Hom soek met hulle hele hart; aan elkeen wat honger en dors na sy geregtigheid en nie hulle eie geregtrigheid vir hulle redding ophou nie; aan elkeen wat dors het na die Lewende Water omdat hulle dit met hulle hele hart wil hê (Openbaring 22:17). So tussen hakies, het jy die woorde “wat hoor,” “wat dors het” en “wat wil”” in hierdie gedeelte raakgesien? Eers kom “die hoor” (van die Evangelie) maar die “hoor” van die Evangelie baat jou niks as jy nie “dors het” nie en die “dors het” baat jou ook niks as jy nie “wil” nie. Alles wat ek hierbo uiteengesit het, dui onomwonde daarop dat die mens ‘n vrye wil het en dat hy dit self moet beoefen om gered te kan word. God red niemand wat nie wil nie.
Daar’s enkele dinge wat jy gesê het wat my erg bekommer. Kom ons kyk daarna.
In my inleidng hierbo het ek telkens daarop gewys dat ware geloof begrond moet wees op kennis — kennis oor wie God die Vader is en wie Jesus is, en wat Hy aan die kruis van Golgotha vir ons gedoen het . In weerwil hiervan begrond jy iemand se redding op sy uitverkiesing en omdat hy/sy uitverkies is SAL hy/sy glo omdat God dit monergisties vir hom/haar skenk. Waar’s die kruis — die krag en die wysheid van God — in hierdie beredenering van jou? Soos so baie ander wat glo in Jesus plus iets anders soos :” Jesus + die doop,” en “Jesus + jou kerk” om gered te kan word, glo die Calviniste ook in Jesus plus iets anders om gered te kan word — en dit is “Jesus + die uitverkiesing.” Laat jy “uitverkiesing” weg, dan bly net “Jesus” oor en dis nie genoeg nie. Soos die ander is ook hierdie “plus”-Evangelie ’n ander Evangelie met ‘n ander Jesus en ’n ander gees.
Ek het reeds Hebreërs 11:6 vir jou aangehaal. Sou jy reken dat die geloof waarvan die skrywer hier praat ’n geloof is wat God soewereinlik net aan die uitverkorenes skenk? Voordat jy antwoord moet jy onthou dat die Calviniste glo dat die Here die uitverkorenes eers monergisties (eensydig en soewerein, en sonder geloof aan die kant. die uitverkkorenes) moet wederbaar voordat Hy die gawe van geloof aan hulle kan gee. Dan eers kan hulle glo. Indien dit so was, sou dit van Hebreërs 11:6 ’n onsinnige praatjie-gebrabbel maak. Waarom sou die Here iemand aanmoediig om Hom te soek as Hy reeds sy sg. uitverkorenes met ’n monergistiese wederbaring gered het? Dis mos belaglik om iets te soek wanneer jy dit reeds in jou besit het. Dit is juis iemand wat uit algehele wanhoop in homself die Here deur die geloof (‘n vertroue in die lliefde, goedheid, genade en barmhartigheid van God) met sy hele hart soek en besef dat dit alleenlik die Here is wat hom kan red, wat God al die eer gee. Geloof is niks anders as ’n vaste vertroue in God se liefde, genade, barmhartigheid en regverdige oordele nie, wat die mens na Hom toe uitdryf vir redding. Kan die Calvinis met oorgawe op God se liefde, genade, barmhartigheid en regverdige oordele vertrou? Nee! sê ek, want volgens die Calvinis is die uitverkorenes so intens verdorwe dat hulle die Evangelie (God se Goeie Nuus m.b.t. sy liefde, genade, barrmhartigheid, goedheid en regverdige oordele) nie kan verstaan nie en dus eers moergisties gewederbaar moet word voordat hulle dit kan verstaan.
Daar is natuurlik twee deure waarvan die Bybel praat wanneer redding ter sprake kom — die een is Jesus, die Deur na die ewige lewe en die ander is natuurlik die deur van jou hart. Jy hoef nie Jesus as die Deur na sy Vader oop te maak nie omdat dit reeds oopstaan. Wat jy wel moet doen, is om dit te vind en daardeur in te gaan. Hy gaan jou nie dwing nie (Mattheus 7:14). Die deur van jou hart kan jyself oopmaak of heeltemal toehou, na gelang jy dit so sou verkies. Luister hierna:
Dis nou vir jou interessant nê? Jesus STAAN by die deur van mense se harte en KLOP en WAG dat hulle die deur vir Hom moet oopmaak. Hy’s nie ’n “gate crasher” wat die deur van mense se harte oopforseer (by wyse van die sg. Uitverkiesing tot redding) nie. Hy wil hê dat hulle die deur vir Hom moet oopmaak en dan eers sal Hy ingaan sodat Hy in hulle mag woon en gemeenskaap (maaltyd, “fellowship”) met hulle kan geniet.
Ek kan jou verseker dat die Here nooit sy soewereine wil in ‘n persoon se lewe sal openbaar of uitvoer terwyl hyself nie gewillig is of uit vrye-wil bereid is om sy wil te ken en uit te lewe nie.
Paulus is ook reeds in sy moeder se skoot uitverkies om God se werk te doen, maar hy moes nog steeds gewillig wees om tot bekering te kom en gered te word. Die meeste mens glo dat Paulus op pad na Damaskus deur ’n soewereine daad van God gered is toe hy van sy perd in die stof geval het. Dit is nie waar hy gered was nie. Paulus het in Annanias se huis tot redding gekom.
Eers toe Paulus nie meer getalm het om die Naam van die Here aan te roep vir sy redding nie, het die Here al sy sondes met sy bloed weggewas. Ons lees ook in Romeine 10:13 dat alleenlik hulle wat die Naam van die Here aanroep vir hulle redding, gered word. Hulle word nie gered omdat hulle uitverkies is nie, maar omdat hulle gewillig is om sy Naam aan te roep vir hulle redding.
Natuurlik het die Here reeds voor die grondlegging van die wêreld geweet dat sommiges nie gered sou word nie, maar Hy het dit nie geweet omdat Hy dit so verordineer het nie. Hy het dit geweet omdat Hy alwetend is. En natuurlik weet ons ook 100% waarom sommiges nie gered word nie. Hulle word nie gered omdat hulle nie uitverkies is nie maar omdat hulle die kruis van Jesus Christus as die enigste Weg tot saligheid verwerp. Het jy dan nog nooit die volgende teks gelees nie?
Jou redenasie rondon vrye-wil is vir my ietwat aweregs. Jy sê: “As vry wil die medium is, waardeur mense kies, hoekom kies sekeres net nooit nie . . .?” Dis nie te sê dat wanneer mense teen Christus en sy kruis kies, hulle nooit kies nie. Kies mense dan net wanneer hulle vir Christus en sy kruis kies? Die mense wat Christus en sy kruis verwerp, het juis gekies om nie deur sy kruisdood gered te word nie, maar op ander maniere wat vir hulle aanvaarbaar is. Ons siien dit daagliks. Om te kan bepaal of iets soos die kruis dwaas is, moet jy noodwendig die eie wilsvermoë besit om te kan kies.
Thomas said
Is it not the work of the Holy Spirit to baptize repentant sinners into Jesus Christ and into His death and not into Himself?
I believe that when repentant sinners are baptized into Jesus and into His death, they receive the fullness of the Holy Spirit. God does not give repentant sinners a portion of the Holy Spirit at their rebirth and then later more and more of the Holy Spirit as they grow in grace. He gives them the fullness of the Spirit the moment they are born from above. I do however believe that die Spirit wants to sanctify and possess the entire life of every saint as they grow in grace. This is exactly why Paul beseeches every saint in Romans 12:2
The baptism in the Holy Spirit, to my mind, occurs when the saint presents his entire life to God as a living and holy sacrifice to the Lord. That is the moment when the spirit of God fills the saint to overflowing with the desire and the capability to know and to do the will of God for him/her personally as an individual for the building up of the body of Christ in Jesus Christ. We find the same spiritual principle in Ephesians 4:11-15
This so-called baptism in the spirit does not necessarily go together with speaking in tongues and definitely not with the unbiblical phenomenon of slaying in the spirit or catching of the so-called fire. It simply demands an unconditional obedience to God and his Word (Truth).
Michael, have you presented your entire life and body as a living and holy sacrifice to the Lord?
Thomas said
Wow! Paul how can you thank God for baptizing none of those to whom you refer in this passage? How dare you say that Christ did not send you to baptize but to preach the Gospel? How dare you separate baptism from the Gospel? Did God not command you in Matthew 28:19 to go into all the world and to teach the nations while you baptize them in the Name of the Father, the Son and of the Holy Ghost? How dare you disobey God? Oh, now I see, you committed the work of baptizing people in the hands of the other disciples. Nevertheless, I still need to ask you: “How dare you say that you were sent to preach the Gospel without baptizing your converts?
Michael said
You know what Thomas, despite the fact that I don’t agree with everything you say and teashes. I do still Love you as my Brother in Jesus. I can see that you are Zealous for God and his Word.
I pray for you daily, that the Holy Spirit will reveal the truth to you and give you the courage to post it on this blog.
Michael said
I see the Baptism here points to the Baptism in the Holy Spirit that they would recieve.
Michael said
I would say yes it is an indispensable part of the Gospel, because it is what we are cammanded in Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
and in Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
But it is not an indispensable part of being saved and recieving salvation.
Michael said
Ek stem saam met Ferdi.
Ek sou die ou net met die Wet konfronteer, soos Jesus dit gedoen het.
Mat 19:16 En daar kom een na Hom en sê vir Hom: Goeie Meester, watter goeie ding moet ek doen, dat ek die ewige lewe kan hê?
Mat 19:17 En Hy sê vir hom: Waarom noem jy My goed? Niemand is goed nie, behalwe een, naamlik God. Maar as jy in die lewe wil ingaan, onderhou die gebooie.
Mat 19:18 Hy vra Hom: Watter? En Jesus sê—dit: Jy mag nie doodslaan nie, jy mag nie egbreek nie, jy mag nie steel nie, jy mag geen valse getuienis gee nie;
Mat 19:19 eer jou vader en moeder; en: Jy moet jou naaste liefhê soos jouself.
Mat 19:20 Die jongman sê vir Hom: Al hierdie dinge het ek onderhou van my jeug af. Wat kom ek nog kort?
Mat 19:21 Jesus antwoord hom: As jy volmaak wil wees, gaan verkoop jou goed en gee dit aan die armes, en jy sal ‘n skat in die hemel hê; en kom hier, volg My.
Mat 19:22 Maar toe die jongman dié woord hoor, het hy bedroef weggegaan; want hy het baie besittings gehad.
Michael said
I’m not going into debating this new baptism of yours.
All that I wil say is: Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ WERE baptized into his death?
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Thomas said
Hi Magda,
Would you say that water baptism is an indispensable part of the Gospel?
Ferdi said
Hi Saonlinebusiness,
I’m in agreement with Tom here, whilst refering to the cross. What baptism (baptizo) is this one, Jesus is refering to?
But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able. And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.
(Mat 20:22-23 KJV)
Magda Kopp said
First we need to repent before being baptised. I think by being batised with water we share in Christs death and resurrection. As He has buried our sins so we too can and must daily overcome and bury it.
Romans 6 : 3-8 says if we have been planted together in the likeness of His death we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection. Here we see the free will again. If immersed into Christ we lose ourselves, we will no longer do our own will or way, for our own will is now buried. Thomas is quite right we are not buried in Christs death it is the work of the Holy Spiritl. Acts 9: 17-18 says Paul was water baptised shortly after Annanias layed hands on him to received his sight and to be filled with the Holy Spirit.
Annanias went his way and entered the house and laying his hands on Him he said: Brother Saul the Lord Jesus who appeared to you on the road as you came has sent me that you may receive your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit. Immediately there fell from his eyes something like scales and he received his sight at once and he arose AND WAS BAPTISED. It is the work of the Holy Spirit that leads us in all truth. Water baptism is a physical act on our part through the work of the Holy Spirit to demonstrate that we want to identify with Jesus Christ in every way possible.
Ferdi said
Iets anders wat my ook net opval Tom, is dat ons omstandighede in baie gevalle ons keuses rig. Wie plaas ‘n baba in ‘n gelowige ouerhuis, die keuse van ‘n mens of God wat soewerein werk? Wie plaas ‘n moontlik, soekende siel op jou blog? Iemand wat moontlik vir die eerste keer jou blog lees en miskien dan oor hierdie onderwerp, naamlik die uitverkiesing, sal dit nie lees omdat dit toeval is nie.
Of iemand in die uitverkiesing of vry wil glo, red hulle nog nie. Die redding van ‘n siel is verhewe bo my en jou verstaan en ook onderskeie vermoëens om te oortuig, behalwe dit wat ons in krag van God se Gees doen. Nie een van ons kan in eie krag iemand oorhaal tot God nie, dit is en bly God se Gees wat beide van ons die wysheid gee en ook Sy Gees wat die sondaar hier sal bring, om Hom te kan kies, as dit is hoe Hy dit spesifiek wil doen.
Sonder twyfel is dit dan ook God wat so sondaar sal kies, om juis hier te land, sou dit die omstandighede wees, waarin Hy dit wil doen.
Ferdi said
Glo in die Here Jesus… en jy sal gered word Tom. Dit is al wat ek of jy kan sê. As iemand wel uitverkies is, sal so iemand glo en nie een van ons sal dit verander nie. As iemand egter nie wil glo nie, sal jou beste oortuiging rakende vry wil so iemand nie oorhaal tot God nie. Ons verskil bloot dat jy ‘n innerlike krag in die mens self voorhou as die wyse waarop iemand sou glo en my eie siening soos ek God se Woord verstaan is dat God die geloof gee, waarmee ons Hom behaag en dat die innerlike krag God self is en nie ‘n neutrale attribuut nie. Ons sien dit net nie altyd vooraf raak nie, maar wanneer mens terugkyk, w(W)ie moet al die eer kry, God wat werk of die mens se vry wil?
As jy soos Finney glo, kan jy natuurlik iemand manipuleer ook om te kies. Kyk maar hoe word musiek aangewend en daar is ‘n hele paar ander tegnieke ook. Vry wil kan baie maklik oor die tegniek gaan om God te kies, waar die uitverkiesing oor die waarheid gaan, wanneer God soewerein werk en daar is geen beter sekuriteit vir die brose mens, as juis wanneer God werk nie. Hy sê nie verniet dat as Hy die deur oopmaak, niemand daardie deur sal toemaak nie.
Ek sal liefs nie self die deur oopmaak vir my redding nie, soos dit so baie die geval met vry wil is, want dan moet jy die deur self oophou…
My vertroue is in God wat werk, nie in vry wil nie, want God ken die wat Syne is al van die begin, soos Hy Jeremia geken het…, Voordat Ek jou in die moederskoot gevorm het, het Ek jou geken; en voordat jy uit die liggaam voortgekom het, het Ek jou geheilig; Ek het jou tot ‘n profeet vir die nasies gemaak.
(Jer 1:5 AOV)
Ek besef egter dat dit ‘n probleem is vir baie om te dink die Here het reeds van die begin geweet hoekom sekeres nie gered sou word nie, maar ek vertrou die Here, Hy weet wat Hy doen en niemand van ons het werklik die 100% antwoord hoekom sekere mense nie gered word nie. As vry wil die medium is, waardeur mense kies, hoekom kies sekeres net nooit nie, wat is fout met die vry wil wat God aan hulle gegee het en is daar iets afwesig wat by die wat kies aanwesig is?
Thomas said
Veronderstel ek is ‘n ongelowige wat die eerste keer op hierdie blog inskakel en jou kommentaar oor die uitverkiesing lees. Wat sal jy vir my sê as ek jou sou vra: “Ferdi, wat moet ek doen om die ewige lewe te beërwe?”
Thomas said
Was the man on the cross to whom Jesus said that he would be with Him in Paradise that very same day baptized into Jesus and into His death? If not, then why not?
saonlinebusiness said
Wait a minute, so what you are saying is that there is another Baptism than the three that the Bible talks about?
The Bible talks about Baptism in the Holy Spirit, the baptism of John the baptizer (which is not applicable any more) and Baptism.
You say: “A repentant sinner is baptized into Jesus Christ and his death the moment He places his trust in Jesus Christ and his finished work on the cross as a propitiation for his/her sins.” this is what Acts talk about in Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, REPENT, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
This is the same Baptism, with water, that the Bible teaches. If one is to be baptized without repentance of sin than you are wrongfully baptized. The water is the sign of the washing away of sin, for as you enter into the water, as Jesus entered into Hades, you are baptized in His Death and the Cross and as you emerge out of the water, as Jesus was resurrected out of the dead, you leave the old man behind, dead in sin and emerge as a new creation in Christ.
2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
Gal 6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.
Gal 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
Gal 6:16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.
Kol 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
Kol 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
Kol 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
Kol 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
Kol 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
Kol 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
Kol 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
If Baptism in Jesus and His death is separate from the Baptism with water then your doctrine is not Biblical and you make the Baptism with water void.
Thomas said
Neither baptism through sprinkling nor immersion baptizes you into Jesus Christ and his death. If the application of water through sprinkling or immersion by a pastor or a priest was able to baptize sinners into Jesus Christ then He wouldn’t have needed to die on a cross. A repentant sinner is baptized into Jesus Christ and his death the moment He places his trust in Jesus Christ and his finished work on the cross as a propitiation for his/her sins. It is the work of the Holy Spirit, not that of water by the hands of a pastor or a priest. If it were possible to be baptized into Jesus Christ and his death through water sprinkling or immersion, it would mean that you got saved when you were baptized. Baptism does not save and never has.
Michael said
I here you talking allot about people missing the true Gospel, so please, what is the true Gospel then?
And what do you believe about the gifts of the Spirit?
Michael said
Now that I have answered your quetion, Thomas, will you be so kind as to answer mine?
Michael said
Thomas I will gladly give an account of how the Lord saved me.
I was “besprinkeld” as a baby in the GKSA and grew up in a mostly God-fearing family.
It was on the Konings Kinders Kamp of Oos-Moot congregation in 2000. Where I, upon hearing and UNDERSTANDING the Law of God, made the Faith in our Lord Jesus Christ my own and believed in Him for my Salvation.
A few years later, I started studying Greek, Hebrew, and Latin at UP to become a Preacher in the GKSA. The Satan laid a trap for me over the course of a few years prior to that and I fell far and hard from the right path and my Lord. Thus, I stopped my studies and started working. Our Lord true to His Word, did not leave me there, stuck in sin, but started guiding me back to Him.
I married the mother of my child who was in a charismatic church. Because of the differences between our churches, we had to do allot of Bible study and praying to find the truth between the different views of the churches. I then found that there was allot lacking in the GKSA and in the Charismatic Churches and that, there is also lots of truth in both.
Because of the growth that I went through the last few years, I came to the point that I have to be obedient to God and was baptized 2 months ago into Christ and his death, and have not lived in so much victory over sin as the last 2 months and I thank Jesus Christ for His death and Blood that did this for me.
PS: I have started talking in Tongues sins my baptism.
Thomas said
In all my encounters with people who ask you “HAVE YOU BEEN BAPTISED IN THE HOLY SPIRIT?” I have never come across anyone who asks you “HAVE YOU BEEN BAPTISED INTO JESUS CHIRST AND INTO HIS DEATH?” (Romans 6:3). They are so bent on receiving “the power” and “the fire” that they completely forget what the Gospel of Jesus Christ is all about.
Once again, “slain in the spirit” is not of God and those who have been slain are deceived and misled into believing that they fall and have fallen under the power of the Holy Spirit. The irony is that they go forward again and again to receive the so-called “power” and “fire” of the Holy Ghost.
Perhaps Michael would love to tell us how he was saved.
Magda Kopp said
Michael I would love to comment onbeing slaying in the spirit. I am born again and has been going to numerous charismatic churches over the past years not because I was jumping around from church to church but because we moved to different areas a lot. I now live in Sydney Australia and was struggling to find a church where I felt at home. The problem with a lot of charismatic churches today and please by no means am I judging anyone but they act in the flesh. When the music plays and the pastor says he can feel the Lord is here or when someone starts praying the harder he talks the harder the music starts to play. I feel very uncomfortable with that. You cannot force God to act or for his spirit to fall on you. Nowhere in the bible does it say people fell backwards. I have seen too much of these things happening in the flesh. I know many wonderful christians who have never been slain in the spirit that does not mean that they dont connect with God. We need to love the Lord our God with our whole heart, our whole soul and everything that is in us. We need to be obedient to the voice of the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit will teach us the truth. It is about the saving Grace of Jesus Christ and a daily devotion to Him and through His Grace he will allow us to live Godly lives that is acceptable and pleasing to Him. People are inclined to run after feelings, things that they can experience the supernatural it is a dangerous path to walk. Be still and know that I am God and whatever your desire is make it known to the Lord. The Bible says in the last days God will pour out is Spirit on all flesh. We have to ask the Lord for discernment and test the spirits. God loves you Michael.
Michael said
OK, if the Word can’t convince you neither can I. So I will stop trying to convince you of the “slain in the Spirit”. The 1 Corinthians 2:14 and 15 was not to convince you, but to give you an idea as to why you cannot understand the Word that I have given you.
But you have not answered my original question. HAVE YOU BEEN BAPTISED IN THE HOLY SPIRIT?
Thomas said
I am not going to enter into an endless discussion with you about the phenomenon of “slain in the spirit” and the so-called “fire.” I’m not going to waste my time trying to convince you that it is not biblical. I can assure you that “slain in the spirit” is NOT the gifts and teachings of the Holy Spirit, as you have tried to convince me from 1 Corinthians 2:14. Neither is the passage from John 18 any proof that “slain in the spirit” is biblical. In any case, all those who fell backward in the garden of Gethsemene were not believers but a bunch of unbelievers and their falling backward was a sign of God’s judgment on them.
In all the other verses you quoted from Daniel, as you yourself have pointed out, the falling was forward in humility and godly fear.
The diiscussion ends here.
Jesus Christ never slew people in the spirit and neither did his disciples.
Michael said
Biblical data
Instances of voluntarily falling before the Lord to worship or pray may be found in Genesis 17:3 and Joshua 5:14. References to voluntarily falling as the result of feeling overwhelmed by a divine presence are found in Numbers 22:31, Judges 13:20, Ezekiel 1:28, Ezekiel 3:23, Ezekiel 43:3, Ezekiel 44:4, Daniel 8:17 and Matthew 17:6.
However, these verses seem to imply falling forward in humility, and it would seem there are no verses to imply falling upon being touched by someone.
But there is one passage in the Bible where people “fall to the ground” just by hearing the words “I am He”. That is when Judas has betrayed Jesus and the soldiers come to get Jesus. This is what it says in John 18:4-6; (4) ‘Jesus therefore, knowing all things that would come upon Him, went forward and said to them “Whom are you seeking?” (5) They answered Him, “Jesus of Nazareth.” Jesus said to them “I am He.” And Judas, who betrayed Him, also stood with them. (6) Now when He said to them “I am He,” they drew back and fell to the ground.’ (NKJV)
If you want to say “but this was Jesus and not some Pastor”
Joh 14:12 I assure you, most solemnly I tell you, if anyone steadfastly believes in Me, he will himself be able to do the things that I do; and he will do even greater things than these, because I go to the Father.
Instances of involuntarily falling before the Lord as the result of feeling overwhelmed by a divine presence are found in 1 Kings 8:10-11, Daniel 8:27, Daniel 10:8-11 (possibly implied), Acts 9:3-4 (also Acts 26:14) and Revelation 1:17.
Both voluntary and involuntary falling before the Lord can also occur as the result of a power encounter—a person feels that the power of God is overtaking the power of a demonic force that has sought to control or oppress him or her. References to falling in the context of power encounters are found in Mark 3:11, Mark 9:20 and Luke 8:28
(Partly quoted from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slain_in_the_Spirit)
1Co 2:14 But the natural, nonspiritual man does not accept or welcome or admit into his heart the gifts and teachings and revelations of the Spirit of God, for they are folly (meaningless nonsense) to him; and he is incapable of knowing them [of progressively recognizing, understanding, and becoming better acquainted with them] because they are spiritually discerned and estimated and appreciated.
1Co 2:15 But the spiritual man tries all things [he examines, investigates, inquires into, questions, and discerns all things], yet is himself to be put on trial and judged by no one [he can read the meaning of everything, but no one can properly discern or appraise or get an insight into him].
Michael said
Act 2:1 AND WHEN the day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all assembled together in one place,
Act 2:2 When suddenly there came a sound from heaven like the rushing of a violent tempest blast, and it filled the whole house in which they were sitting.
Act 2:3 And there appeared to them tongues resembling fire, which were separated and distributed and which settled on each one of them.
Act 2:4 And they were all filled (diffused throughout their souls) with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other (different, foreign) languages (tongues), as the Spirit kept giving them clear and loud expression [in each tongue in appropriate words].
Michael said
On the topic of “Slain in the Spirit”.
Dan 8:17 So he came near where I stood, and when he came, I was frightened and fell on my face. But he said to me, Understand, O son of man, for the [fulfillment of the] vision belongs to [events that shall occur in] the time of the end.
Dan 8:18 Now as he [Gabriel] was speaking with me, I fell stunned and in deep unconsciousness with my face to the ground; but he touched me and set me upright [where I had stood].
Dan 10:8 So I was left alone and saw this great vision, and no strength was left in me, for my fresh appearance was turned to pallor; I grew weak and faint [with fright].
Dan 10:9 Then I heard the sound of his words; and when I heard the sound of his words, I fell on my face in a deep sleep, with my face [sunk] to the ground.
Dan 10:10 And behold, a hand touched me, which set me [unsteadily] upon my knees and upon the palms of my hands.
Dan 10:11 And [the angel] said to me, O Daniel, you greatly beloved man, understand the words that I speak to you and stand upright, for to you I am now sent. And while he was saying this word to me, I stood up trembling.
Michael said
To give you a better idea of what i’m asking, here is a few extra verses:
Acts 8:17
Acts 19:6
Thomas said
Slain in the spirit is a very dangerous phenomenon and so is the so-called catching of fire. You may be interesting to read the following article written by Prof Johan Malan.
http://www.ltradio.org/articles/?admin=linkto&link=57&&quick=y
Michael said
No…
I’m talking about Mat. 3: 11
Sarah said
Baptism in the Holy Spirit is not the same as being slain in the Spirit. When you are Baptised in the Spirit, something profound happens between the Holy Spirit and you, where for example the evidence of speaking in tongue can be one thing. Slain in the Spirit is, being Filled with the Spirit, which you need to ask on a daily bases.
Thus Baptism in the Holy Spirit is when the Holy Spirit came ON you, and slain is when you are FILLED. Slain you can do every day. Jesus was Baptism (with the dove) when the Holly Spirit come UPON him, Jesus was not slain in the Spirit.
So Thomas, I guess what Michael is asking, did the Holdy Spirit Come ON you like what happend with Jesus?
Amanda said
The ability to raise the dead?
Amanda said
The ability to speak in tongues or a prayer language?
Thomas said
Are you asking whether I was slain in the spirit?
Michael said
Thomas, after reading a few of your other posts, I have this one question for you.
Have you been baptized by Jesus in the Holy Spirit and by Fire?
Thomas said
So now, in your understanding they are trusting God to save 10 million souls. FULL STOP, but Elza Meyer’s rescue from a severe demonic attack set the whole thing in motion. As a Christian you should know it is ludicrous to suggest that it set the entire thing in motion. Don’t you think it has always been God’s intention to save not only 10 million but the entire population of more than 49 million souls in South Africa? Why would He only want to save 10 million and then wait for someone like Elza Meyer’s son to ask for the salvation of those 10 million in behalf of his mother’s rescue from a severe demonic attack?
Wheher you refer to the New Covenant does not make any difference to the situation; the fact remains that the Moreleta Park DRC pledged to see 10 million saved and baptized in exchange for the attack on Elza Meyer’s life. There motivation for the redemption of 10 million souls involves Elza’ miraculous rescue from a demonic attack and not the cross of Jesus Christ. Once again, salvation is not a bartering business. Every single person needs to respond in faith individually to the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Therefore, we are called to preach the Gosp[el and not to make pledges in exchange for anything else, let alone your life. Indeed, you should be prepared to lay down your life (to die) for Christ and His Gospel, but then it should be in behalf of the Truth and not some kind of pledge you make.
Michael said
I see that you could not give me a direct answer on my question, but at least you stated what we are debating about: “The question however remains: On what basis do we ask or pray for the salvation of others”
It seems to me that you are jumping to conclusions here. Because you read: “He claimed 10 million souls, saved and baptized in exchange for the attack on my life. It immediately stopped.” and then you say they are going to save souls based on what happened to Elza.
As a Christian, that is ludicrous, to say that you want to save souls on any other basis than the Cross.
Therefore, here is how I read: “He claimed 10 million souls, saved and baptized in exchange for the attack on my life. It immediately stopped.” and then I understand they are trusting God to save 10Mil souls. FULL STOP.
I am in no position to say that they are going to do it in this or that way, because the sentence does not state that. Therefore, if you do not have a Quoted sentence where they are saying, that they are going to save souls with the gospel of Elza, your argument does not hold water.
In addition, the Covenant that I refer to in my first post is not a covenant of that congregation or that person. It is the new Covenant in the Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ.
PS: I have not heared of Elza before I read your post, nor am I very fond of the DRC. I am just tired of people that judge Spiritual things, while they themselves have no or little understanding of the Spiritual things. 1 Ko. 2: 13-14
Thomas said
Well, that’s a great relief – your last sentence! The question however remains: On what basis do we ask or pray for the salvation of others – the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross or on the basis that a saint has been resued from a severe attack of the devil and his demons? Perhaps you can help me to find the correct prayer in the following two prayers.
Lord! I pray that you will have mercy on 10 million or more souls in our country and that you will save them for the sake of our Lord Jesus Christ and what He has done for them on the cross of Calvary.
OR
Lord! In our covenant we made with you when you rescued our beloved Elza from a severe attack of demons, specifying that we need You to save 10 millions souls in SA over the next ten years, we now claim those souls for your Kingdom.
Salvation is not dependant on a covenant someone makes with God because He has rescued them from a severe attack of the devil. Salvation depends on a sinner’s response to the Gospel and his or her subsequent response to Jesus Christ’s call, “Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.” etc. (Matthew 11:28).
How are you going to proclaim the Gospel to one or two or more souls of the covenanted 10 million? Are you going to tell them: “We made a covenant with God that He should save 10 million of our people within ten years time if He would rescue Elza Meyer from a severe demonic atack she suffered during one of her conferences. Guess what? He actually rescued her and now we are putting into action our covenant with Him.” Do you know what I would have done if one of Moreleta Park’s covenanted saints tried to evangelize me with such a message? I would probably have laughed, not because I’m being facetious but because, when I was still unsaved I knew the Gospel off by heart and yet never responded in faith to Jesus’ call of love. I knew what it meant to be saved but rejected it outright. You see, you will never win anyone to Christ by telling them of the miracle God performed when He rescued Elza Meyer from a severe attack of the devil and that the whole of the Moreleta Park congregation made a covenant with Him to save 10 million lost souls. The cross of Jesus Christ is the power and wisdom of God, not a covenant you or even an entire congregation has made with Him.
I’m very concerned about the Moreleta park DRC, mainly because they tolerate false apostles and preachers such as Tony Campolo and Frank Viola.
Michael said
OK, I don’t want to go in to arguments that will lead to nothing other then the breaking down of our Faith. On that ground, I am not going to say anything in regards to the reply on my post.
So let us first determine what we are debating about.
Am I correct if I say that the question here is whether or not we may ask God to save people/souls?
For I do not see any reference to a “salvation” other than the Salvation in our Lord Jesus Christ.
Amanda said
Amen, Thomas. I think you have given Michael something solid to think about.
Michael, I agree that we should discern the spirit. We do this by comparing what is said to the Word of God. If it contradicts the Word of God, then it cannot be from God. We cannot use or ‘good feelings’ or the ‘vibe’ that is generated as the basis of our discernment. So I would encourage you to place the Word first and to reject anything that goes against the plain teachings of the Bible.
Thomas said
Hi Amanda, I don’t know whether you have the time to respond to Michael’s friendly rebuttal. He says a few things that is so way off track that I doubt whether he will listen when anyone points out his unbiblical remarks to him.
I am really concerned about his remark: “What her son did, is he went boldly to the thrown of God and said that He should save 10 million souls for this one righteous woman. Abraham did it because he understood what a covenant is and that he have the right to ask God to spare people because he have this covenant with God. And in the same way, we as children of Abraham, in the faith, can do the same today to ask for people to be saved on the ground of our covenant with God.“
All I have to say at this stage is that Abraham did not pray for the salvation of the sinners in Sodom because of a possible 50, 45, 40, 20 or 10 righteous saints living in Sodom. He prayed that God would not destroy Sodom for the sake of a possible 50, 45, 40, 20 or 10 saints living there. If only a single righteous saint could have been the reason for the salvation of those lost in Sodom, Abraham could probably have prayed: “Lord, please save all those poor lost lost souls in my behalf, a righteous man.” but he didn’t.
The problem with Michael’s and Elza Meyer’s as well as her son’s sotereology (doctrine of salvation) is that Jesus Christ’s finished work on the cross is not sufficient and that we need to bargain with God for lost souls on the basis that we have a covenant with Him, or because at least one of them is righteous. In that case every single child of only one saved parent shall be saved. That’s not biblical, not biiblical at all.
Michael said
I think you wrongly interpret what happened here.
Because when I read what Elza said and what happened to her and what her son did, I don’t see mush wrong with it and your comments doesn’t seem to me, to understand what is happening in the spiritual real with demonic attacks and the strength of our covenant with God.
First of all there is no mention of what you call “A New Divinely Decreed Way of Saving Lost Souls in South Africa”, for the 10 Mill souls they what to have saved is not going to be saved in the name of Elza or her son or any other human for that matter, but they are trusting God to save the 10 Mill souls.
Secondly, “He claimed 10 million souls, saved and baptized in exchange for the attack on my life. It immediately stopped.” It is biblical, for that is what Abraham did for Sodom and Gomorra in Gen. 18: 23-33
Abraham said to the Lord that He should spare Sodom and Gomorra for 50 righteous and then 45 and then 40 and so on until he got to 10.
What her son did, is he went boldly to the thrown of God and said that He should save 10 million souls for this one righteous woman. Abraham did it because he understood what a covenant is and that he have the right to ask God to spare people because he have this covenant with God. And in the same way, we as children of Abraham, in the faith, can do the same today to ask for people to be saved on the ground of our covenant with God.
So I will say lets stop trying to find what is wrong with every 1 who has a greater anointing than we ourselves have and discern the spirit in witch it is done and then, if it is found that the spirit is from God, stand with them and pray with them for the good of the whole body.
Thomas said
Apologies for not responding to you promptly but I would first like to do some research on “Theopostic healings” and Gretha Wiid. I haven’t forgotten you. Please bear with me and hopefully I will be able to answer you in due time.
Thanks for your kind comment
Thomas
Sarah said
Your article makes sense. Whatever is being done in the flesh will have no lasting effect, in fact no effect. …Not by might nor by power but by My spirit.. This I can say because when I gave my heart to the Lord, I was not in a church or meeting, I was alone at home, and called out to the Lord. Regarding Moreletta. In 2006 I saw in NG Moreletta website they do practice “Theophostics” – false visualization healing technicians. I submitted then to them that this is no good, and they should ask the Lord about it…and to date they still practice “Theophostics”. Thus they open some doors on themselves. I also heard the Hatfield Christian Church has now also started with this “Theophostic” healing techniques. You are right with the deception in church. What is your thoughts of Gretha Wiid?
Discerning The World said
SSiE
I doth understandeth
SSiE said
Must be true, because it’s the word of God, which the Bible tells us is true, because it’s the word of God, which the Bible tells us is true, because it’s the word of God, which the Bible tells us is true…
Even a child will be able to spot a useless circular argument like that, and you should really worry about why you, as an adult, think it holds any water.
Thomas said
“The fool has said in his heart, There is no God.” (Psalm 14:1)
SSiE said
Well, since atheists aren’t the ones claiming magical jewish sky zombie, I don’t think the burden of proof lies with us
The fact is simply that I do not believe in God, because He seems very, very, very unlikely. He may still turn out to exist, but so may Zeus, Thor, Baal and the tooth fairy. Since there is _exactly_ the same amount of evidence for God and those things, and since I dismiss those as improbable to the point of impossibility, I also dismiss the idea of God, and with it all religions that rely on a supernatural deity like the Christian God.
You also claim that “A child can tell you that”. Really? A child raised by (some) Christian parents, maybe, but most definitely not all children. The natural state of all children is that of atheist, and they get brainwashed into their parents’ chosen religion from an early age, before they can think for themselves. That’s EXACTLY why many religions, including Christianity, has built-in orders to get to the children before they start thinking for themselves, for the simple reason that the supernatural claims of religions won’t survive rational scrutiny. The priests knew this, and wrote those instructions into the holy books to ensure a little future job security for them and their successors. It’s just human nature, and blindingly obvious when you read the holy texts as an outsider without, untainted by years of indoctrination.
Thomas said
Your belief that all religion is a lie should also be scrutinized very thoroughly to make sure your own belief is not a lie. How certain are you that your belief is the truth, i.e. that all religion is a lie? Don’t you think you are rather a bit conceited to say that all religion is a lie and that your’s – the belief that all religion is a lie – is the truth?
Interpretation is not the issue here. What Elza believes to be the way to reach 10 million people for Christ is plain and simply not biblical. A child can tell you that.
SSiE said
As I’ve said before: As an atheist, I disapprove of the turn2god campaign. As a Christian (or should I say RealChristianTM), the author of this blog also disapproves of the turn2god campaign. The sentiment is the same, but the reasons are different.
SSiE said
I simply meant that both atheists and many Christians don’t like the turn2god campaign. Our dislike or disapproval of it is the same, but stems from different convictions. You don’t like it because you interpret the Bible differently than Elza Meyer, I don’t like it because all religion to me is a lie, and spending so much money on a lie is a terrible shame.
Philip said
Well put. I cant believe how people can believe that they are so important and that it is all because of us and not HIM. People must stop looking for attention, stop playing church and go and do what Christ has instructed us all to do and that is to go and preach the Gospel to others, again an outward thing not inward.
Thomas said
Perhaps you should read my comment again. My sentiments are not in harmony with those of the atheists but in accord with what the Biblle says about atheists. The verse I quoted from Luke 16:8 suggests that unbelievers (which of course includes the atheists) sometimes have more discernment than the believers, or least those who claim to be believers. We live in a time in which every Tom, Dick and Harry claims to be a Christian. The sad thing about this is that unbelievers look at and listen to these nominal Christians and blapheme because they are under the iompression that Jesus Christ is their Lord while He actually wants nothing to do with them.
Elza Meyer To Save 10 Million Souls Because of Demonic Attack « Discerning The World said
[...] Read more of the article here: Waak en Bid/Watch and Pray – A New Divinely Decreed Way of Saving Lost Souls in South Africa [...]
Discerning The World said
SSiE
>> I always find it interesting how some Christians will share the exact same sentiments as us atheists, but claim different reasons.
Confused. Athiests don’t believe in the existence of God or deities for that matter – so how can Christians who believe in God share the same sentiments as Athiests?
I must say of all the things I have read and heard today, this has truly stumped me. Maybe you can explain further?
Discerning The World said
To Infinity and Beyond!!!! Love it!!!
WHY does this story of Elza Meyer sound almost identical to Rodney Howard Browne’s story…
“Christmas morning, Dec 25, 2002, changed the lives of Dr’s Rodney and Adonica Howard-Browne forever. It was early hours of that morning, that Kelly, their 18 year old daughter, passed away in his arms. She had suffered from the incurable disease, Cystic Fibrosis for 18 years.
As she passed away, Rodney and Adonica offered up to Jesus the best gift they had to offer, their daughter. Rodney then vowed, that because the devil had taken their daughter with this dreaded disease, he would pay with 100 million souls over the next 10 years.
Thus began the burning of the vision for 100 million souls.”
Hmmmmmmmmmmmm I think we have a case for the Myth Busters team
SSiE said
I always find it interesting how some Christians will share the exact same sentiments as us atheists, but claim different reasons.